Rahaf (00:44)
Hello, happy Tuesday. Welcome back to the Really Rahaf podcast. I have a special guest with us today. Hi, Kevin.
Kevin Hood (00:53)
Hey, Rahaf, how's it going? It's good to see you.
Rahaf (00:56)
It's good to see you. So a lot of my clients have been asking about where I got my copy done, like how I learned how to write magnetic copy. if you know me, you know that I go to people whose zones of geniuses are the different parts of their business. And I found Kevin, I love to start my episodes when I bring guests in of like how we found each other, how did we meet? Do you remember how we met?
Kevin Hood (01:22)
⁓ Yeah, well, so here's what I remember. I'll share what I remember and you can maybe share what you remember. You either replied to one of my emails or one of my threads first about how much you liked my emails. And I remember taking note of that and I think it happened a couple times. And then honestly, I don't remember how we ended up.
⁓ so you replied to my emails a couple times and you were like, I love your emails. And I was like, cool. We had a little bit of back and forth. And then at one point you just filled out an application to work with me to help you with your copywriting.
Rahaf (01:59)
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, love talking. I love talking about the buyer journey because I, I, I was on threads. I was just scrolling through threads and then I saw one of your threads. was like, wow, that like that hit. And then I saw you again. And then I saw you again. I'm like, okay, I'm following. So then I followed and then I saw more of your threads. And then I went to your main page, like your main threads page and you had your, your email course. was like your free email course was the sequence of emails. I'm like,
Kevin Hood (02:00)
And that's how it all got started.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Rahaf (02:28)
Cool. I had never even seen something like that before. was like, wow, a freebie email course. How cool. I'm like, how fitting for you doing copy that way too. So I immediately subscribed and then I binged your five emails. Cause I pretty sure it was a five email ⁓ like sequence and you could get them right away. So I'm like, I just got all of them the same night and I read through them all. And then I was on your list and I remembered the exact email that converted me into a client.
Kevin Hood (02:34)
Yeah.
Nice. Yeah.
Which one was that? wait, I think I remember that one too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rahaf (03:00)
It was the, you remember?
Yeah. It was a 4th of July email and you melted me with one question. Do you remember the questions?
Kevin Hood (03:13)
⁓ It was probably something like who's standing next to you.
Rahaf (03:17)
Who's standing next to you? Yeah, I have.
Kevin Hood (03:19)
Yeah. He's standing next to you this year at the 4th of July barbecue.
I think that email was I open with a story about Star Wars and Luke Skywalker and Han Solo and how Han Solo is like thinking the force is some hokey religion and he's making fun of him when he's training on the Millennium Falcon and how by the end of the movie, Han Solo has changed his mind.
about this whole thing.
Rahaf (03:51)
and then you pop that question and it melted me. And I think like this is important for all of our listeners listening right now that copy doesn't have to be this big fancy thing. It was the simplicity, the simplicity of you saying, look around you, who's standing next to you today? I swear I got had like tears in my eyes because it made me really sit and reflect of like, Mike is with me today. Like my partner, we were gonna, who knows what we're gonna do today for the 4th of July, but you.
Kevin Hood (03:53)
And then I pop the question. Yeah.
Rahaf (04:19)
you asked a question that was so simple that made me look inward. And I immediately was like, I got to book a call with this guy. And then me being a sales coach, I know when I book calls with coaches, like I'm getting closed. Like you are signing me as a client. So I didn't even actually, I was thinking, I'm like, okay, I want to up level my copy. I started looking at all of my landing pages. I had an evergreen email sequence. I'm like, there is work to be done. So I was, I was looking, I wasn't necessarily shopping, but I was looking.
Kevin Hood (04:25)
Nice.
Yeah.
Rahaf (04:48)
So when I found you and I don't really shop around, if I find one person and I align with them, I'm going all in. I think ⁓ it's funny, I was just thinking about this the other day. think shopping around is like a blue pill mindset. It's like the need to have backup plans, the need to delay, the need to wait. And the red pill mindset is like, nope, intuition. I feel this, I trust this, there's alignment. I see your work, I love your work, I'm going all in.
Kevin Hood (04:56)
Nice.
Mmm.
Rahaf (05:15)
because I believe that's the energy we need when we go into a container, when we go into any program. So I did a three month program with you, Kevin, and I learned so much.
Kevin Hood (05:15)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that was awesome.
We covered a lot of stuff. I just taking it back like one step here, I feel like I make my purchasing decision decisions the same way you do. It's like I sort of make them before I even get on the call. And yeah, it's less about shopping around and it's more about just finding the people that you really align with that really you see doing what you want to be doing. Right.
And yeah, then we worked together for three months. We rewrote your copy for different sales pages and opt-in pages. We worked on your email copy. And I think we got some pretty good results.
Rahaf (06:10)
Yeah, yeah, we got we got some pretty good results. All right. So speaking of the results, I don't know if you knew this at the time, Kevin, but you saw me at a rock bottom. Like I was at a rock bottom when we met. And when I'm at a rock bottom, I don't just sit and curl in a ball. I asked myself, okay, what do I need to do? How can I get creative? How can I get out of this? ⁓ A couple weeks.
Kevin Hood (06:24)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Rahaf (06:39)
Yeah, like a couple of weeks before we met, my 16 year old cat passed away and he was my baby. I've had him his whole life. And it was, you know, as entrepreneurs, we all have things that happen in our life. And it was one of those moments where I spent all of my money trying to help him get through the cancer. And I went to Switzerland for my PhD trip and I came back and I was like, all right, like things started to like hit like, ⁓ shit.
we need to do something. Like we cannot just like stay stagnant. So I was like, okay, how can I find people whose zones of geniuses can support me with where I am in the chapter? So I found you and I was like, okay, there's something that needs to be shifted with my copy because I have all these people. I have all these leads. I don't need more leads. And I think, you know, this is to the listeners is like, we have this idea that we just need to get more leads, new leads, new leads. It's like, no, you have people that are already warm. They're already at it.
Kevin Hood (07:37)
Yeah.
Rahaf (07:38)
juicy spot of the customer journey. We just need to make them melt the way that you made me melt when I read your email. So it's like, okay, let's just, I didn't, let's use whatever liquid money I have and just invest because that's my mentality. It's not about the resources we have. It's about how can we get resourceful? So I got resourceful. I scrapped stuff together. We made something work. And then the next month I had a $25 K month.
Kevin Hood (08:05)
Yeah, which is awesome. Congratulations, by the way. And ⁓ I mean, I think that's a testament to just like all the work that you did before that leading up to it. You know what I mean? Because ⁓ you built a lot of trust. You built a lot of ⁓ belief in yourself and that translated into your readers and ⁓
You know, at that point, all we needed to do is get the right message in front of the right people at the right time. And they were already waiting for you to share whatever your next step was, right? You just needed to figure out a way to share it with them.
Rahaf (08:44)
Yeah.
Yeah. So tell me more about that. What did we do tangibly in our three months together? I had a Google doc that was over 150 pages of notes from our time together. Do remember that? So break it down for our listeners, what it looks like when you have a copywriter coaching you through what it's like to build different landing pages, build the email sequences. Walk me through that.
Kevin Hood (08:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I heard a quote one time that ⁓ something like 80 to 90 % of the benefit of working with a copywriter is just having some outside perspective on your business. And the nice thing about working with copywriters is they tend to have ⁓ a strong understanding of the markets that they've worked in, right? So I've worked in holistic health, I've worked in fitness.
I've worked in different types of personal development, overcoming burnout, ⁓ other different types of challenges like that. I've worked in business coaching in multiple niches and having a deep understanding of even just in my own life.
Like, what are all the difficult, challenging experiences that I need to go through to actually make a change in my life? Like, what actually motivates me to act? What motivates other people to act in this niche? What are the things that are important to them in their life? What's going on around them that is going to ⁓ make them afraid to take the next step forward? And what's going to inspire them to take the next step forward? And...
Rahaf (10:25)
Yeah.
Kevin Hood (10:31)
when you can speak to those concerns and address them, that's how you can safely help people along ⁓ and move through the difficult process of change. Because change is hard. It's difficult, it's scary. ⁓ You're going out on a limb oftentimes. You're not sure what things are going to be like on the other side. When you're on the internet, like, trust is low and skepticism is high. There's a lot of strangers out there who have offers that might be good for
someone but maybe they're not good for you but they're more than willing to sell them to anyone with a credit card and a pulse. And so how do you build that trust? How do you show that you really understand what the person is going through and that you have the actual solution for them? And it all comes down to being able to, ⁓ it's all about empathy, know, being able to stand in those other, in the other person's shoes. ⁓ A lot of times we're teaching the, ⁓
Rahaf (11:09)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Hood (11:29)
We're teaching the challenges that we've gone through ourselves, right? And so it's hard to look back in time and see where you were two months ago, three months ago, six months ago, three years ago, and how you actually felt, because we tend to actually block those uncomfortable experiences out of our mind and our psyche. And so even being able to go back and write about that often feels like cringe.
for people, like, ⁓ don't want to write about that. It's cringy. And it's like, yeah, it's cringy because it hurts. ⁓ And it's uncomfortable. And it's not about necessarily drilling into the pain points or twisting the knife and making it hurt. It's just about empathizing with where people are really at and helping them understand ⁓ what it's going to be like on the other side.
Rahaf (12:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, building that gap.
Kevin Hood (12:27)
So, yeah. So our work together was really that and understanding the buyer awareness journey, all the people in your audience, like where are they at? Are they aware of the problem they have yet or not?
And ⁓ what message do they need to hear right now in order to take one more step closer to you or one step further away? A lot of it is ⁓ attract the right people and repel the wrong people. So we tailored your your sales pages and your opt in pages so that they're specifically for the right type of people you need in your business. And and same with the emails. And we came up with a system to ⁓
Rahaf (13:10)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Hood (13:15)
so that you can sit down and write an email ⁓ fairly quickly and easily while sounding like you in your own voice without overthinking it and just get the message you need in front of the people in your audience, right? And the message they need to help them whether they buy from you or not.
Rahaf (13:32)
Yeah.
Yeah. And you taught me how to fish, right? There's an expression. You can give a man fish or you can teach him how to fish. You taught me how to fish. So in our time together, like not only did we build landing page by landing page, my start here, my opt-in pages, my evergreen sequence, but you also gave me the tools of the different types of emails to write the different pillars so that I could go in there and feel that. I think, like I hear your voice every time I write my emails. I scheduled seven emails yesterday. I batched.
seven for the holidays. So I'm like, just, the next week I'm moving to a different city. I'm going out of the state for Christmas. So I don't want to have to think about emails. I don't want to have to think about, you know, making content. So I batched it all. And I was just thinking about you the whole time of like, how do I create that before after bridge? How do I paint the transformation? How do I make it multi-sensory? And I think, I think what you said before too, of like, you really have to know your target avatar.
Kevin Hood (14:05)
Yes, that's amazing.
Rahaf (14:33)
And what's beautiful about service providers, ⁓ coaches, healers, practitioners, educators is the target avatar is a version of us, like you said. So, you know, and I talk about, you know, very powerful exercises of how to connect to your avatar. You think about like what year was it when you were your avatar and can you make a journal entry and say today is December 22nd, 2018. And today I.
and just go quantum leap back in time and really feel into it because that's what your email did to me is just really feeling your words. And also the awareness, I love what you said of like the awareness of where everyone is in their buyer journey. So tell me about that. How would our listener know within their followers, you know, they have a thousand, 2000 followers. How do they know how to speak to different levels of the buyer journey and meet them where they are while not losing their high level avatars? ⁓
Kevin Hood (15:32)
⁓ well.
You know, if you're on social media, for example, ⁓ the algorithm is somewhat going to take care of that for you. So if you're creating social media content for different stages of awareness, the algorithm has some ability to get that right message in front of the right person on its own without you doing anything. And as long as you create the content specifically for the person,
who's, let's say, not really aware of what the root problem is, it's probably gonna show that content to them, and not the other people who already know and already get it. Then there's an element of sort of self-selection, right? The people who know who you are and they see your content and they're like, yeah, yeah, I already know that, they're gonna scroll by, right? But as long as you consistently deliver across those different levels of awareness, know, people aren't gonna give up.
They're not going be like, Rahaf's too basic for me. I'm moving on, right? They'll be like, some of our content's for beginners, some of it's not. Cool. So there's that self-selection element. And then, of course, all your diehard fans are going to probably see everything you post. And they're just going to understand and appreciate the reminders. Because as much as we think we know these things that we learned early on,
⁓ it's nice to have a reminder of why we are where we are and all those things too. So it's really just about ⁓ being able to break your message down and speak to those specific stages one at a time. So one of things I like to talk about in writing emails is ⁓ you want to focus on one thing at a time. And a lot of times when people write an email,
They want to tell this long interwoven story about their life and include all the details and explain every little twist and turn and side story and speak to everyone at the same time. They want to speak to everyone at every level of a journey at the same time and explain all those things. It's like, you don't need to do that. You just need to focus on one of them and everyone can appreciate it on some level. And
⁓ the people who need that message right now are gonna resonate with it and potentially take the next step they need to take in their life. And so ⁓ whether it's with content or with emails, the idea is speak to one person about one problem.
with one solution and ⁓ when you do that...
You can just remember that not every piece of content or every email has to be for everyone, right? This is for one person and the people who don't need that message right now, they're gonna ignore this email. It's fine, they're not gonna hate you because you sent them an email that didn't make sense to them.
Rahaf (18:46)
Yeah.
Yeah.
So good. So good. So good. You know, and I'm sure you, the listener, you've heard this expression. When you speak to everyone, you speak to no one. And a lot of the coaches I work with, most of them struggle with this because they don't want to leave people out. But the thing about that is you need to be okay with leaving people out because when one person can fully resonate with what you're saying, and I've said this before, it's like,
Kevin Hood (19:10)
Yep.
Rahaf (19:20)
why is Taylor Swift so successful? Because she knows exactly how to be hyper-specific in her lyrics for her team, to talk about the guy with the skinny jeans. And even if you don't like guys with skinny jeans, you can form a story, a picture in your mind, like a movie. And that's what copy does. That's what good copy does. So it doesn't matter if someone is not fully resonating. It doesn't matter if they're not your target avatar yet. They will rise.
to become your avatar if your copy is positioned the right way. And it's being okay with leaving people out. Because at the end of the day, do you really want those people on your sales calls anyway? The ones who kind of resonate? No, because then you're gonna have an upstream issue. So when we start at the root of the copy of just being crystal clear in who we're speaking with, you are looking out for your future self because the rest of the sales journey is gonna be so much easier for you. And the client itself is gonna be super aligned.
And I think people struggle with that because also we've all fallen in the trap of shiny object syndrome. Let me just create this offer, this low ticket offer, this, this, this. And then you have an offer suite of 10 offers, which probably have 10 different avatars. So then the audience get confused. So can you speak more about that? Because I'm sure you've seen that about coaches who create multiple offers and then not knowing exactly where to focus their attention.
Kevin Hood (20:47)
Yeah, so...
I just want to actually before I talk about dealing with multiple offer syndrome, I want to take a step back to what you just said about. ⁓
Attracting the right people and repelling the wrong people so that you can make the rest of your sales process like that much easier, right? You want to make sure you have the right people in your business. And there's also this idea that I think like you'll probably resonate with is that, you know, you've got this sort of energy signature, right? And the people that want to learn from you are attracted to you regardless of what you're saying. Like they show up and they're like,
Rahaf can teach me something. I don't know what it is yet, but I know Rahaf can teach me something. And so they follow you. And they're following and following and following, and they're sort of waiting. You know, some of them are just gonna be like, I don't care. Rahaf can teach me something. Like, I'm gonna opt in now, you know? But some of them are like waiting for the right message. The signal that it's clear, the signal that it's safe, the signal that this is the right person for them.
And so that's where ⁓ getting really specific with your message comes into play, right? And you can, ⁓ whether it's email or content or whatever, you can test all these different sort of angles and test all these different ideas without ⁓ spending months creating an offer and then trying to sell it. Right? So with your content, with your emails, you're sort of
Rahaf (22:25)
Mmm.
Kevin Hood (22:31)
testing where ⁓ your energy, your interests, your skills, your abilities, where they meet the interests of the marketplace. You're seeing what people respond to when you create content, when you send emails. And that's sort of how you ⁓ can help make informed decisions about what types of offers you should create for your audience.
And then one of the things is, like you said, people get caught up in trying to create a whole bunch of different offers for a whole bunch of different people as a way to solve, usually I think it's to solve either cash flow problems or to figure out what actually works. And so to some degree, testing makes sense, but...
I think it's better to, like I said, test that in your content and your emails by finding out what people respond to rather than making a whole bunch of different offers all the time and getting people confused. And so I'm guaranteed a victim of this myself in my own life. ⁓ And one of the ways I solve that is by working with other people.
If I get to work with other people and help them with their offers, I get to scratch that itch of doing different things all the time. ⁓
Rahaf (24:01)
This is actually
really funny.
Kevin Hood (24:05)
⁓ But yeah, it's like I kind of have all these ideas all the time and I always want to do different things and I can and I get distracted by shiny objects all the time. And so, yeah, that's one, like I said, it's one of the benefits of working with other people is that I get to scratch that edge. But yeah, I see it all the time. People try to be everything to everyone and they struggle as a result.
Rahaf (24:33)
Yeah.
Kevin Hood (24:35)
You know?
Rahaf (24:35)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And something big with that, I think you and I aligned in these values of, you know, a lot of coaches I work with is they build their high ticket container and they barely launch it. And then immediately they're like, I got to build something low ticket right now for accessibility. And it's like, sure, yes, absolutely. And this was actually, you know, I don't think of anything as like mistakes, but this is something that I did. And I was like, ⁓ okay. I learned my lesson on this is.
You know, first of all, if we're ever building an offer for someone else, that we've, we've lost why we're actually building it. And don't get me wrong. I think it's great to be able to build something, make it accessible, have a freebie running for now to bring people into the high ticket offer, but to shift your attention and to start building a low ticket offer when you haven't quite scaled and gotten down and really gotten clear on your target avatar and solved a high ticket problem.
It's, there's gonna be incongruence in the business because you're speaking to two different people, two different avatars completely when you haven't had one thing scale and go to the moon yet. And I did this, I did this. I had a high ticket offer and then I built a low ticket one because I was like, you know, there's people in my community that just wanna be in my energy. I'm like, no, I'm creating this for the wrong reasons. But.
When I understand the copy, when I understand my avatar and I take it to the moon, then we can start bringing in other offers because it really is gonna be a different stage of a person. And that was very difficult for me to speak to multiple people in my social media, speak to this person who hasn't started a business yet, but I'm speaking to this person who's established and has five calls, 10 calls in the calendar every month. It's difficult and it's diverting attention and it's also confusing for the audience. So what happens like,
when the audience gets confused like that? Have you seen that happen?
Kevin Hood (26:31)
Yeah, the confused mind says no. ⁓
I think it breeds a lot of hesitation on whether or not people are going to opt in to your offer or not. You know, one of the things I said to ⁓ one of my clients the other day was like, if you just make the same offer like over and over again in your emails, eventually people give in. And it's not like you're beating them up or beating them over the head or anything with it. It's just like...
Rahaf (26:57)
Yeah
Kevin Hood (27:07)
⁓ It all comes down to testing, right? What's the one message that you need to get in front of that person for them to be like, this is what I need? Like we talked about earlier, you said that email where I asked you who's around you right now was what got you to finally book a call with me. And I think you were probably on my email list for at least a month, maybe a couple, I don't know. ⁓
Rahaf (27:16)
Mm.
Kevin Hood (27:35)
and you had gotten my offer in front of you several times and didn't opt in. But it was that one message that finally got you to say, yeah, Kevin can actually help me. one of the things I'll say is, so this whole low ticket offer thing, where it comes from, so.
You know, selling digital products is one thing, but I'll say that it's a lot harder than selling services. And I'm not saying you can't make it work, but ⁓ because it's...
Rahaf (28:08)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Hood (28:14)
High touch services are easy to sell but difficult to deliver. They require your time and your hands-on guidance, but a certain guarantee comes with that for the buyer. They're like, this person's right there with me every step of the way. They're going to make sure I get results. An information product is really easy to deliver. You don't have to do anything. It's just automated. ⁓ But it's also super high risk for the buyer.
⁓ So therefore it's a lot harder to sell. ⁓ People have to dedicate their time to going through it, and if they don't get results, that's worse than wasting their money, right? And so this whole low ticket offer thing tends to come from the paid ad space. And so the way... ⁓
Rahaf (29:05)
Mm.
Kevin Hood (29:12)
A high ticket offer is often validated in the ad space is you run ads to a freebie. And then you get people on your email list and you send emails and you get on calls and you meet people and you get to know them and you find out their problems and then ⁓ you help them solve them. ⁓ And to help offset the ad costs, you will create a low ticket product.
eventually, once you start validating, you figure out what the free stuff is that people want to, ⁓ that get people interested in your email list and your offers and your services, then you want to offset those ad costs by giving away a low ticket product that helps them solve a problem. It helps build trust. ⁓ It moves people along the levels of awareness, helps move them through the buyer awareness journey and
know, ads are expensive. So. ⁓
And then eventually, once you validate those low ticket products, you can sell them sort of upfront with the ads. eventually, that sort of leads people up to, again, your high ticket service. And so it's really a very long iterative process that starts with what you just talked about, which is the high ticket offer.
Rahaf (30:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Hood (30:39)
and you just, you know. ⁓
the information products come later and everyone wants to jump ahead. ⁓ But it usually doesn't work like that.
Rahaf (30:56)
Yeah, I went straight into high ticket when I built my business. Straight into high ticket. I had one client and then I built a high ticket group program and then I did one-on-one and then I did a low ticket membership and then I did a low ticket digital product. just, it takes the same amount of effort to sell. Unless you're running ads, it takes the same amount of effort to sell high ticket or low ticket. I want everyone to hear that.
Kevin Hood (31:00)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rahaf (31:24)
Like I was grinding on threads and not to mention, if you're listening, we probably align in values. You value freedom. You value having peaceful time for your intuition to come in. You don't want to be just hustling, hustling, grinding all the time, selling a $24 product. You want to be able to share and capture the moments of your life of, Hey, this is what my life looks like. This is what I'm doing. And it's a result of what I help people with. And.
Kevin Hood (31:41)
Yeah.
Rahaf (31:53)
Being able to capture that in high ticket is so much more easily integrated in your life because you're just capturing the moment. But with low ticket, you're not getting as much of a return on all the same hard work that you're putting in. So when you focus on high ticket, when you focus on an expensive transformation, when I say expensive, I don't just mean like expensive problem, expensive like money, but expensive in energy because you solved an expensive problem for me, Kevin. I like at the core level,
Kevin Hood (32:20)
Yeah.
Rahaf (32:22)
It's like, yes, I needed help with copy externally. Yes, my emails, yes, my, my content on social media, my opt-in pages, everything, my sales pages. But at the core level, what you solved for me was confidence. Because here I was someone who as a little girl loved writing, loved writing. I would publish little books in third grade. I probably still have them. Like I loved writing. would write little books. But when I started my business, writing felt different.
because I felt like, I have to, you know, sell. I have to find a way to sell. So it felt like I was activating a different muscle and the writing for love was gone. So at the core level, I didn't have the confidence in myself to show up and make copy. I didn't know how to put it in a container, which I really struggled with this. How do I put this in this neat one minute video of how to make my email this and how to make my social media content like this? So I struggled with that. at the deep.
Kevin Hood (32:58)
Mmm.
Rahaf (33:21)
core, you gave me confidence in myself to show up and to learn how to deliver content and copy while selling as service without trying too hard.
Kevin Hood (33:36)
That's awesome. That's beautiful, Rahaf. I love to hear that. ⁓ And, you know, one of the things I want to add to what you were saying was just sort of how... ⁓
high ticket, work services, whatever you want to call it, like how it fits into your life. You one of the things is I think people underestimate ⁓ what it takes to actually get people a result with info products. Because we might know something, I might know something about copywriting, but if I just went and created a course about it and then...
put it out there and tried to sell it and people actually started going through it and they were like, Kevin, I have no idea what you're talking about here in this section. What does this even mean? What are you talking about? I just had a call with a client right before our show here and she is, you know, this client is starting to write on threads and
I'm starting to offer her services and we've been working together for about a month and it's going really well. ⁓ She's getting like, we just put out two posts ⁓ last week that brought in 900 followers, doubled her follower count and got 52, yeah, and got 52 email subscribers. She just started her email list. This is brand new. So now she's got 52 email subscribers.
Rahaf (35:03)
What? That's significant!
Kevin Hood (35:15)
And it was just with two simple posts. And we open up the call, and I start talking about how we need to track, like, which post is actually getting people to sign up, because we're not, like, how do we differentiate that, right? There's certain ways you need to track these things. And I started showing her how I do this. And I'm like, how is this landing with you? And she's like, it's a bit confusing. And I'm like, all right, let's take a step back, forget the tracking.
Rahaf (35:17)
Wow.
Yeah.
Kevin Hood (35:44)
Like, what do you think's most important? She's like, I need to like, get on discovery calls with people. And I'm like, duh, like, why am I trying to show her how to track where her email subscribers are coming from when she needs to get people on discovery calls and sell her services? Like, I'm in my head thinking, this is the most important thing. When it's clearly not right now.
Rahaf (35:54)
you
Mmm.
Hehehehe.
Hehehehe.
Kevin Hood (36:12)
And that's
what happens when you go to create info products. There's all the stuff that you think is important and it might be important, but it might not be the most, might not, you might not have things in the right order. ⁓ And then there's all this stuff that goes into having your messaging and your marketing set up the expectations for people once they get inside that course or that info product, right? So I think people really just underestimate the amount of
Rahaf (36:16)
Mmm.
Kevin Hood (36:43)
Sheer like if you're not regularly coaching the stuff One-on-one with people or teaching it or providing that service one-on-one with people you're gonna have a really hard time Creating an effective info product and you're have an even harder time marketing that info product And it's not if you build it they will come it's like you really need to know what you're doing with info products to get them to work
Rahaf (36:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes. I, I, that's on my list of phrases that don't make sense. Build it. Then they'll come. It's, that's just not the way it works. And this is also why market research is so important. I will like yell this from the roof. Just get on calls with people, learn about your business. And you know, I, what I do, like a technique that I do is like whenever I'm getting on market research calls, even my current clients that are exactly my avatar, like exactly her, I save those transcripts.
Kevin Hood (37:18)
Yeah.
Rahaf (37:37)
I save those transcripts, save them, and then I feed it to Chat GPT. I'm like, keep learning about Selena. Keep learning about Selena. That's the name of my avatar. And it's just so important to be constantly learning about who our avatar is. Because if we aren't actively coaching all the time and we're not in the energy, we lose that connection with who we're speaking to. And if we lose that connection, we lose that spark, no one is resonating.
Kevin Hood (37:37)
Yeah.
Rahaf (38:01)
This is not like, I checked a box, I did a sales page, I did an opt in page. It's like, no, do you wanna burn through all your leads? Or like you've told me, do you want the lion's share of who you have? Because you can have 10 people click your link in bio. And if you have magnetic copy that converts, you can have five, seven of them actually start clicking around opt into something. But if it's just you check the box, I did my link in bio, I did my copy, then...
What, how many people are actually gonna click around? So it's not about just getting the task done, it's about doing it right. And I think that's what you helped me with is like actually going through page by page and doing it right. I showed up on that first call, I had a Google doc of like goals. I went through all of my landing pages, I'm like, here are all my goals, everything that I want done in our three months and we went to it. And it's just so nice having that outside perspective.
Kevin Hood (38:50)
Yeah.
Rahaf (38:55)
that third party perspective where you're not just in your biases, you're not just figuring it out on your own. And I don't know, like you guys have heard me say a million times, I value, value, value having a coach. I think that is the most powerful way to collapse timelines. I think that's how we can move fast and be regulated and not feel like we need to be this warrior of figuring everything out on our own because that's our biggest downfall.
So our most valuable asset is our time. You want that time back, you want to work with someone so that you actually learn these skills from someone who's living it and doing it. Or do you want to use whatever knowledge you have circling around in your brain to try to figure something out? And that's what you gave me is that relief of knowing, okay, I know that this copy is going to convert now. And sure enough it did. You know, when we talk about that 25K month that I had, that evergreen sequence that we built together for my masterclass,
They came from that!
Kevin Hood (39:55)
Yeah. Yep.
Rahaf (39:57)
That copy, that copy in a sequence I built one time that became an asset, it was a masterclass that I did, put it in a funnel, and then everyone who subscribed to the masterclass, they got these emails every day. So it's not even this thing where it's like we're doing a million things together. It's like, we got very clear on one offer, one freebie, and then took it to the moon.
Kevin Hood (40:18)
Yeah, just use it over and over again. Get it in front of people.
Rahaf (40:22)
Yeah. And the fact that it converted so well after doing it, it's just so nice to have that proof of concept and to know, okay, this is how I create copy that converts.
Kevin Hood (40:36)
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's an assembly process and,
You know, once you learn how to break down the different parts you need, you can just sort of assemble them from the different places you have them. Like you said, you've got ⁓ Selena, your avatar in ChatGPT that you're constantly feeding these transcripts to. And as a side note, ⁓ you know, that's why not everyone in the world is learning from Alex and Leila Hormozi, right?
because they're so far ahead and they're not in tune with Selena, right? They don't know how to help Selena solve their problems. What's more, advice from them is gonna be prohibitively expensive for Selena, know? $25,000 a minute or whatever they charge, you know? But you're committed to understanding Selena as
Rahaf (41:15)
Hmm.
Kevin Hood (41:37)
deeply as you possibly can and helping Selena solve her problems, whatever they may be. Because today it's gonna be, don't know how to get people on a sales call and tomorrow it's gonna be, I don't know how to get people to actually buy from me on a sales call. I don't know how to communicate what I do properly so that people are like, yeah, this is exactly what I need. ⁓ And that problem is gonna evolve over time.
And so really staying in touch with that person is super important. And now you've got a space where you can say, hey, Chat, what are the seven different primary problems that Selena has before deciding to learn how to do sales? What are the difficulties that she's experiencing in her life? Boom, pops it out. Now,
you can take one of those and write a whole email about it. It goes back to the rule of one that I talked about earlier. But then as you write these emails and as you write these social media posts and as you grab this info from ChatGPT through your transcript, you can start to assemble these different things into what becomes a sales page or an opt-in page or an email or your bio.
Rahaf (42:32)
Mm.
Kevin Hood (42:56)
And it just becomes, yeah, it's like playing with Legos.
Rahaf (43:00)
Yeah.
Yeah. And speaking of Legos, not only will that build the structure for your emails and your content, but also this is how you make your sales calls more predictable. Because when you start to learn about your avatar and you're writing about it every day, one tangible problem here, one tangible problem, you start to play chess with your sales calls. You know exactly what they're going to say before they say it because you studied them, you wrote about it. And it just brings more predictability in the business because that's what
Kevin Hood (43:12)
Hmm.
Rahaf (43:29)
All of this does. Having magnetic copy, having, you know, sales calls that feel like you're not pulling teeth. It's like, it's all about just making a more predictable business. And that's what, that's what knowing your avatar gets to do for you.
Kevin Hood (43:39)
Yeah.
Yeah, I feel like in sales, I mean, you probably know more than I do, but it's like 90 % of it is just like.
You've heard it all right, and so you know how to respond and you're comfortable in responding and you're not attached to the outcome
It's like, I've heard that. I've heard, Selena, I've heard it a thousand times and here's what I always say.
Rahaf (44:04)
Exactly!
Kevin Hood (44:05)
And then she's like,
⁓ Rahaf does get me. Okay, let's do it.
Rahaf (44:12)
Exactly. And like you, as the coach holding the call, it becomes less emotional for you because it just becomes more matter of fact, like, okay, this is what she's saying. This makes sense. It's like, you just think about it logistically of like, okay, this is the same trend that I'm seeing from all these Selenas coming on my call. Sales becomes less emotional. And when sales is still emotional to me, that's the biggest indicator. There's a leak in the process.
Kevin Hood (44:39)
Mm.
Rahaf (44:39)
Where
that leak is, okay, we can look at that. But starting from the root of the copy in your avatar solves the majority of the upstream issues that take you to the sales call itself. Because so many of my clients are like, I need help with objections. I need help with reframing objections. It's like, yes, we can do that. But let's talk about all the other upstream issues that we're not even taking into consideration that you probably won't even get an objection if these
structures were in place. And copy is one of those, one of many, because when you can have at the very roots someone really resonate in who you are and your story and how you can help them, then it just makes that call so much more grounded in trust. By the time you get to the end, it's like the value's there. You don't need to communicate any more value. It's just a matter of, okay, where do I sign?
Kevin Hood (45:12)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. The copy is going to help you filter out people who shouldn't be there. And ideally, more it filters out the people that shouldn't be there, the better.
Rahaf (45:42)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Weed them out. Weed them out. Yes. Yes. I call it an alignment checkpoint.
Kevin Hood (45:51)
Yeah, say protect the airtime and protect your time.
Nice. Yeah, that's a great, great way to put it.
Rahaf (46:03)
So it's like, you want to be hyper specific in who you're speaking to so that people can opt out. Be like, this doesn't resonate with me, scroll. Because the more people that you can get to opt out, the more space that you can hold for the people that fully resonate that will spend a lot of money to solve their problem with you.
Kevin Hood (46:21)
Mm-hmm 100 % Yep
Rahaf (46:22)
And that's what it comes down to.
So what is one tangible thing that you can give our listeners on what they can do right now? Like if they have copy that they just kind of threw together on their landing pages, or if they are kind of just throwing spaghetti at the wall with their emails, what can you give them right now?
Kevin Hood (46:41)
Well, it's going to depend a little bit, but I would say, you know, if you if you feel like you're throwing spaghetti against the wall with your emails.
That's probably a good thing. think you need to, I think email is really about being able to.
test these different ideas that you have and see what people are responding to.
And if you start treating each email like an experiment, instead of feeling like you need to turn it into sales or convince people to buy from you, and you just say, hey, I want to talk about this specific experience. And you sit down and you write out your email. To solve and address a very specific issue, like, let's say, for example,
Rahaf (47:11)
Yes.
Kevin Hood (47:36)
⁓
Let's use the email that we talked about ⁓ that brought you in to my world. you ⁓ know, the email, it went out on 4th of July and I wrote about, ⁓ particularly, I like using Star Wars as an analogy. Not everyone's into Star Wars or whatever, but like I am, I like that story.
And I like using it as an analogy. like I said, the analogy is Luke Skywalker is on the Millennium Falcon training with Obi-Wan to become a Jedi. And Han Solo is making fun of their hokey religion and basically putting Luke down. And by the end of
that movie, Han Solo is saying to Luke, may the force be with you. And in the end, comes and rescues him and doesn't go off on his own back to his smuggler lifestyle. And he joins the rebellion.
And so, you know, this email is speaking to that moment in time where Luke was on the Millennium Falcon and he has to deal with the fact that his family died and he's got to do this heroic thing. He's probably scared. You know, he already turned it down the first time and, you know, the offer to go with Obi-Wan the first time.
going because he has to. And meanwhile, people are like, you think this is going to work? How silly, right? And that relates to our experience as entrepreneurs, right? It's not a for sure thing. It's not a guaranteed thing. It's scary. It's outside the norm. The normal is, you know, go to school and get a nine to five and and do the safe thing and and
And going out on your own is kind of like that moment for Luke, where he's like, all right, I, you know, take on the empire. And even if the people around you are somewhat supportive, at least on the outside, I know for me in particular, like I've had experiences where I've given up the safe thing, right? I used to be a. Construction contractor and I stopped doing construction contracting.
⁓ to teach marketing online. And arguably, staying in contracting would have been the safe thing. It's still running your own business, but it's a traditional career. But it just wasn't inspiring to me. you know, like, I just remember talking to friends sometimes who I, even if they weren't judging me, I felt like they were judging me for making that decision and giving up this.
this thing that was clearly making money to follow my passions.
and they'd be like, hey, how's business is going? And I'd tell them and I would feel like, I don't know if I was making it up in my mind that they were judging me or if they were actually judging me in the back of their mind, but I was trying to portray that, that moment, that experience that I had in that email. And so in the email, I said, who's around you right now? How are they responding? Are they snickering behind the gluten-free burger buns?
Rahaf (51:15)
Hmm.
Kevin Hood (51:26)
Right? Because that's kind of what's at like, you know, that was the experience I had. ⁓ And it took me having mentors in my life to like make that leap and finally do it. I'd been thinking about it for years to start building my online business. And it wasn't until I had the mentor that I had at the time.
Rahaf (51:30)
Yeah.
Kevin Hood (51:54)
that I was like, and all this other stuff was going on in my life. I was like, I'm just going to teach my first online workshop. I don't care. You know, and I did it and people signed up for it and they bought it and they paid me money. And I was like, wow, this stuff works.
But it took like, you know, someone giving me that motivation. And so if there's one thing you can do, if you feel like you're throwing spaghetti against the wall, is probably do what Rahaf tells you to do, which is sit down with your journal and say, it's January 11th, 1998, or that's too long ago, you know, 20... January 8th, 2020, and you know, I...
Rahaf (52:30)
Hehehehe
Kevin Hood (52:41)
hit rock bottom with my health and I finally decided to change my diet. And here's everything I'm scared about. And write that stuff down and write an email about that experience. And just share that experience as authentically as you can. not just like, it's even less about experimenting what your readers respond to, it's learning to articulate.
those difficult experiences in your emails and help people with your words and ideas.
Rahaf (53:21)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kevin Hood (53:22)
It's
like how much can you actually serve? How much can you make your writing about the person reading it instead of about you?
Rahaf (53:32)
Yeah, that's very powerful.
Kevin Hood (53:33)
I know that's a
long-winded way to answer your question, but...
Rahaf (53:37)
So good. So good.
No, it's, so important to like get the context of that because it really, you know, I love that you said like there's, there's a way to throw spaghetti at the wall. There's a way to do it with intention. It's like actually tracking, actually experimenting, actually looking at, okay, look at the click rate of this email. Okay. Something is well, like did well here. Let's put that in our welcome sequence. Let's use what's already working. Let's study it. Let's repurpose it as social media content. And that's why tracking is so important.
Kevin Hood (54:04)
Mm-hmm.
Rahaf (54:06)
You know, otherwise we don't know what variable to change. We don't know what's actually working. So it's important to like take what's working from one platform, take it to another one and just pay attention, just be curious. And then also like, how can people connect with you? How can people have the transformational experience that I had because it wasn't just like the $25 K month. was also like what I learned from you. was how much
You cared, like you held my hand through the whole thing, the accountability. You don't see that a lot in support. And it's something that like I provide with my clients, but I don't see that a lot. So what do you have? Like, what can you say to our listeners and in helping them with their next steps, if they're like, all right, Rahaf connect me with Kevin, I'm ready to go in.
Kevin Hood (54:57)
Yeah, best way to get in touch with me is just go to kevinhood.me / rahaf. That way I know Rahaf sent you. ⁓ And at the time of this recording, that's going to take you to the homepage on my website and you can sign up for my emails there. And that first email you get is going to sort of give you all the information you need on the different.
offers and services I provide and how you can get connected with me. ⁓ And yeah, I work with people one-on-one. I help them with email and copy and content. And I'm also, ⁓ like I'm currently in the process of opening up a private community. So whether or not that's available to you when you sign up for my email list or not.
It may or may not be, I guess is what I'll say. But you'll also be able to find out about that when you join my email list.
Rahaf (55:57)
Yeah, I think that's great that you're gonna have that, but I'm like, go one on one. Like get the true Kevin experience. you're in a place where you finally are like, I know something's off with my copy. I know that there's a gap in my skillset. I know I don't feel confident really writing my emails. You will not regret it. Like you've got my stamp on how much you've impacted me just in the three months.
I'm already at the point where I'm like, right, Kevin, we got some new opt in pages. You'll probably be hearing from me soon. So you, you are, you are my copy guy. And I'm just, I'm so, so, so grateful for you. I'm so grateful that you came to me at a time that I was in a rock bottom and you were like,
Kevin Hood (56:30)
Okay, yeah. Yeah, let's do it.
Rahaf (56:45)
I would not be where I am with my copy and with my business. It wasn't for those three months. Like honestly, I truly say that. I don't know what would have happened in that time of unknowns and uncertainty and chaos in life. So it's just thank you and thank you for being here and sharing your wisdom and talking to our listeners who are probably on the edge of their seat right now, just excited to go through all of their copy and pages and
Kevin Hood (57:08)
Yeah
Rahaf (57:11)
Yeah, do you have any last words, anything else you want to say before we say goodbye? I can't believe it's been an hour.
Kevin Hood (57:17)
I know
It flew by. Yeah, I just want to say thank you for having me on. I'm really honored to be here. I want to say that I've learned a lot from you too in our time together. You've been really inspiring to me like all the things you've accomplished have been, you know, just
really inspiring, you you've, you've grown your business faster than I ever was able to when I got started. So kudos to that. And learning is a two way process. Like when I'm teaching, I'm also learning from you. And when we're working together, I'm just straight up learning from you by osmosis, all your great wisdom about sales and
self-confidence and working with energy as a way to improve yourself and grow your business. ⁓ Very inspiring stuff. I've really enjoyed working with you wholeheartedly and would love to do that again. So thanks for having me.
Rahaf (58:22)
Thank you. Thank you for being here. And I'm to put everything in the show notes. So the link we were talking about, I'll put your threads direct profile, because I think like people want to see like a portfolio of yours. It is your threads account for sure. I mean, you will just melt when you see his threads. That was what got me, you know, is like seeing, cause that's the ultimate form of copy is like, you don't even see your face. You just see your words. So that's what
Kevin Hood (58:29)
Awesome.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rahaf (58:52)
really helped me see your work. I'll drop all that in the show notes. And yeah, I think we've really hit our main points and thank you so much for coming in. It's been so wonderful sitting here with you today, wherever you are, whether you're in the car, whether you're at home, snuggled under your covers. Thank you for tuning with us and I will see you next Tuesday. Bye.
Kevin Hood (59:16)
Bye.
